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SOCIETY, BUSINESS and ECONOMY => SOCIETY => RELIGION => Topic started by: tonib on May 28, 2008, 04:46:38 PM

Title: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on May 28, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
please share with us your understanding of believe, faith and trust
is there any difference and if there is state the difference
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on May 31, 2008, 06:59:30 AM
In what context? Religion or genera context?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 02, 2008, 09:52:01 AM
hello olanajim it could be in either context just want to know your views
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 02, 2008, 01:10:08 PM
Let me see...
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 02, 2008, 03:50:09 PM
am still waiting............
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 02, 2008, 05:06:54 PM
Still coming!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 02, 2008, 05:09:54 PM
ok, hope i will not have to wait forever
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 02, 2008, 10:54:46 PM
You know why, I hesistated to post? Because you can turn the thread either way. You can either discuss the issue from spiritual angle or from romantic angle. Both of them would lead to difference destination. The former is holistic. Thd later is romantic. Since you posted this on religion, I would suggest we follow religion. Tonib, let pick them one by one. Trust is a confidence you have in someone. Belief is the strong feeling that something exists or is true. Faith is an unquestionable ? trust in something or someone. With these words, the foundation of any Religion is moulded. One thing I know is that, THEY ARE ALL A STATE OF MIND. They can be alter according to the prevailing circumstance.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 09:19:24 AM
thanks so much ola, but how are they interrelated?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 10:11:42 AM
Let me use an illustration:

you have a hen that had just laid 15 eggs. You desperately need to multiply your stock and want all the eggs to hatch. Then, to achieve your goal, you put all the eggs in one basket and started counting your chicks even before they are hatched.

That is how best I can illustrate interelation among the three, BELIEVE, FAITH, AND TRUST!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 10:51:30 AM
Thanks so much ola, i think i get you now. I raised it cos a lot pple use the three interchangably so i  begin to wonder what the differences are.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 11:08:00 AM
There are differences. You trust someone or something you have seen or felt. You believes someone or something after you have been convinced beyond reason. But faith is acceptance and expectation of thing you have neither seen or felt. It takes alot of effort to have faith.

To trust is for those you love. We hardly trust people we don't like or love.

To believe is for those who hold superior arguments to yours. It is also for those who our heart hold dear. We hardly believe anything that does not appeal to us!

But to have faith? We need only our knowledge and our will power. We max not have seen any sign of our expectation, but faith overides our doubts and put us on the path of fulfilment. Men of faith look at the unseen, the invisibles, whether they like it or not, whether they feel it or not. They remain faithful.

Men of faith are rare!

Faith, real faith is like putting all your eggs in one basket and then start counting your chick before they are hatched.

Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 11:14:56 AM
hmm thanks for that illustration it makes the whole thing easier
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 12:31:27 PM
Well, it is easy in words not in deed.

We hear people talk so much of their faith, beliefs and trusts, but when we look at their deeds, we cringe at the sight of hypocrisis that are made manifest. It would be fait to pick them one by one.

To begin with TRUST.

If you trust someone, you can sleep with two eyes open. Trust is the lowest of the three. To trust does not necesarily mean to believe or have faith in.

To illustrate. If I TRUST my girlfriend, I can give her my spare keys, let her sleep with me. I can also leave her in company of another man without having to fear she would sleep with the man. That is trust. But, I may not give her passwords to my emails or disclose my true financial worth. I still trust, but not believe in her.

In the parable of EGGS above, TRUST is manifested in the confidence I have in the basket. That TRUST ends there. I may still fear that I may lose my eggs if I put everything in the basket. That is TRUST without BELIEF. So to say, with TRUST, i may just decide not to put all my eggs in one basket if I don't have confidence ( BELIEF) in the basket.

In religion, many people merely trust God, they don't BELIEVE or have FAITH in Him. How? Going to church, mosque or shrine regularly is nothing but an indication of your trust in God. If you read and preaches Holy books, it is not enough to determine your Believe or trust.

That is trust!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 12:36:36 PM
hmmmmmmmmmm am all ears
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 12:47:53 PM
Or all eyes?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 12:56:17 PM
all join
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 12:58:48 PM
Well then, DO YOUR TRUST ME?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: kendan on June 03, 2008, 01:02:05 PM
hmmmmmmmmmm am all ears

please this hmmmmm game will not help oo!
or do u relate to Deeran, with all due respect pls,.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 01:16:08 PM
Quote
Well then, DO YOUR TRUST ME?


Well you know i dont know you well, but from what you 've written so far, i think there  is  a level of trust that i can giv.

Quote
please this hmmmmm game will not help oo!
or do u relate to Deeran, with all due respect pls,.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm to answer ur question, sure we are related has he not told you? he is my younger brother ;D don't let him hear o cos he doesnt want pple to know

Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 01:25:26 PM
BELIEVE!!

That is next in rank. A graduation from TRUST. That is your secondary level of mental conviction. Beliefs can be sway by your knowledge of the reality. By what you sees, hears and knows. Belief is a state of mind.

Using my earlier analogy. In the parable of EGGS and basket; when you properly inspect the baskek and take all precautions that enables you to put the EGGS in one basket; when you lagged the basket and then proceeded to carry it carefully. You are demostrating your BELIEF. Beliefs need some tangible actions before they can be effective. It differs from trust greatly.

In the church preacher analogy. If after you jot down the teaching you have heard in the church you went home and do nothing with them, then you do not belief anything. You merely trust God. A pastor who preaches unity but is embroiled in leadership tussle with his colleague merely TRUST the words of God. He does not believes no matter how much miracles he perform.

When a leper came to Jesus and asked to be healed. Jesus asked him to BELIEVE! Then he believed. And afterward, he was told that if indeed he believed, he should go bath in a particular water! And he did. Then he was healed!

Our preoccupation with miracles and search for solutions to our problems did not allow us to go beyond TRUST in our dealing with God. That is why there are so much corruption in the land where churches sprout on every street daily.

Most of us that moved from TRUST to BELIEF are tagged pious, righteous and godly. But how many of us have faith?

Most of the pastors, Alfas, Babalawos just BELIEVE but never have faith.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 01:35:52 PM
hmmmm
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 01:56:06 PM
Since you do not trust me enough, I BELIEVE, we should work on our BELIEF and leave FAITH out!

You lies tonib!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 03:54:43 PM
Quote
You lies tonib!
why?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 04:48:10 PM
You can not trust people to an extent. Trust has no half measure. You can however refused to believe them.

Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 03, 2008, 05:35:44 PM
hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 03, 2008, 05:43:01 PM
And now?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 04, 2008, 10:20:47 AM
And now?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 04, 2008, 10:24:24 AM
FAITH!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 04, 2008, 10:39:40 AM
Good
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 04, 2008, 11:41:25 AM
Faith is the highest level of conviction. Faith is always true. From my analogy, faith is what makes you believes your eggs would all produce chick. Faith is what would lead a man to deposit all his earning for humanitarian cause. Faith is acceptance that something you have not seen, felt, heard, is real.

When Abraham was told that at 100 year of age, his 95 year old baren wife will conceived. He not only believed, he also have faith.

Faith, however is of two types. DEAD FAITH AND LIVING FAITH. Both of them are effective. The only thing seperating them is knowledge and level of conviction. I don't believe in TRUE or FALSE FAITH. All faiths are TRUE! If you perceive a FAITH to be fake then it is nothing but something between TRUST and BELIEF.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 04, 2008, 03:58:18 PM
thank you so much
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 04, 2008, 04:00:37 PM
That is BELIEF!
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: buda atum on June 05, 2008, 04:24:30 PM
I believe I can fly, but you try pushing me off a twenty floor building and see me kick the living daylights out of you if I can! the fact of the matter is I believe I could fly! I never told you I can fly now did I! I may even go as far as trusting that if I did get pushed I would fly, but that does not mean that I am prepared to test the idea thank you very much, in which then you could claim I do not really know whether I can fly or not, which is really making the point.

I look out my window and say, "It is raining", because I see what I understand to be rain falling from the skies.  If I were in the hall, which has no windows, I may decide the noise I hear coming from outside were falling rain, though, in the back of my mind I also think it might be the telly I left on in the living room which explains my "I believe it is raining", as opposed to me asserting rather positively that "it is raining, period".  In the latter, I have actually checked so I know, even though I may still be wrong, but in the former, I think it is raining, as I do not really know whether it is or not, and so I hedge my bet, I may be wrong.  I may have faith that it is indeed raining, having never checked, and hence put on a raincoat and take an umbrella as I go out.  Pity me though if it were the telly, the sun is really blazing away in the sky! I trusted my senses, but the damn things let me down I would say if I were going to be honest with my self.  The lie would be if I convinced myself it was raining when it wasn't, but my raincoat and umbrella made it stop! Did I hear you say "silly buda", there yet!? I'll say it to myself if you haven't.

One believes, has faith, and trusts quite a lot of things, some of them divine and many others borne out of one's inability to check.  One thing I do know for sure is that if I kicked you in the butt, you most likely would kick me back, despite my wish to believe in the faith I have that you would turn the other cheek.  And if I don't trust that you would, well, I can always try it, and find out, I suppose, after all, how do I know you can't be trusted till I tried.


Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: tonib on June 06, 2008, 11:46:04 AM
@buda
thanks also for your clarification
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 06, 2008, 12:54:00 PM
Buda,
you have mixed them up. That is why you didn't get the clearer picture.

Let me help you. If you believe you can fly. Then it wasn't the believe but the TRUST you had in flying that made you contemplate flying. If you sincerely BELIEVE, then you would move to your window, open it and look at the floor from there. If you have FAITH, you would jump out of the window regardless of the danger. That is the illustration of the difference using your own words.

If you won't dare it, the you don't have FAITH! Faith never fail. Only few actually have faith.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: buda atum on June 06, 2008, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: olanajim
Buda,
you have mixed them up.   That is why you didn't get the clearer picture. 
If you won't dare it, the you don't have FAITH! Faith never fail.   Only few actually have faith. 
Have I really mixed them up Olanajim, or is it you who do not get my picture? I must say, I am well known for painting them well, but let me consider, shall I?

Quote from: olanajim
Let me help you.   If you believe you can fly.   Then it wasn't the believe but the TRUST you had in flying that made you contemplate flying.   If you sincerely BELIEVE, then you would move to your window, open it and look at the floor from there.   If you have FAITH, you would jump out of the window regardless of the danger. 
Trust? Now that is a rather grand word! I may trust anything I want, but that does not necessarily make it so now does it? I may after all be deluded, and my faith may rest on sand! My believing is not exactly the same as my actually knowing Olanajim, so basing my trust on a belief rather on knowing is rather dangerous, I say. 

If I knew I could fly, I would not say "I believe I could fly", for my knowledge of my ability would be based on some experimental knowledge perhaps gained from having flown before (I don't have any such experience, note), in which case, my so called faith will be based on my personal ability as tested before.  Having no such experience, but believing I could fly sounds more pie in the sky if anything as it is not based on a solid foundation, so to say.   So on what basis would I be claiming to trust such untested faith in my ability to fly?

But lets say I have the trust you imply, unfounded though it is, and did open my window and jump out regardless of the danger.  You would understand that though my faith made me disregard the danger, the danger surely would not be disregarding me would it? And someone would have to scrape my battered body off the floor where it would lay splattered!

Quote from: olanajim
If you won't dare it, the you don't have FAITH! Faith never fail.   Only few actually have faith. 
I may dare it, and I may say my faith made me dare it, but this is surely where the words, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" that Christ spoke to the tempter come in, I reckon.  Faith in the absurd cannot but fail, is what I mean.  Or as is properly said, faith without work (work meaning the testing of the basis of such faith), is groundless.  I do agree with you though that few actually have faith, but I reckon that those few are a very large portion of the people out there still. 

Hey Olanajim, do you think my picture is pretty well painted now?
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: olanajim on June 06, 2008, 07:37:39 PM
You still it wrong. Sorry to say.

You cannot believe what you don't trust. We use trusts, sometimes in place of believe. You can trust anyone you don't know based on instinct or first contact. Your believe is actually base on fore knowledge. While your faith is the highest.

Many times we claim to have faith falter at the slightest sight of obstacle. Saying I believe I can fly is in order. You have to back it up with action before your faith can be felt.

Since you have never fly before, it remain just BELIEF. If you truly have faith in your ability to fly, you would demostrate it at the slightest opportunity.

Faith is the highest level in conviction. By FAITH, men achieve extraordinary. People who faith in their ability don't recite the I CAN DO mantra. They act once opportunity present itself.

In religion, we talk of BELIEVERS and FAITHFULS. The TRUST is not used as often because religion demand utmost conviction.

When you are, for instance, in difficult time. They tell you to TRUST IN GOD. That is to expect that God is capable. But the problem become harder. You are told to BELIEVE IN GOD. By your belief, you would devote to him and exhibit patience. At the extreme level. All efforts had failed and you seem hopeless. The word that would be used more often is FAITH.
Title: Re: Believe, Faith and Trust
Post by: buda atum on June 06, 2008, 10:08:28 PM
Quote from: olanajim
You still it wrong.  Sorry to say.
That's ok.  I wouldn't learn if you agreed  ;)

Quote from: olanajim
You cannot believe what you don't trust.  We use trusts, sometimes in place of believe.  You can trust anyone you don't know based on instinct or first contact.  Your believe is actually base on fore knowledge.  While your faith is the highest.
Hmm, I like your assumption in that first statement, but you are assuming I am some logical reasonable person however who cannot believe the impossible, and that by believing a thing necessarily makes it so.  Have you considered that I may be wrong in my trust of a person whom I have only just met for the first time? After all, the fact that i trust a person does not mean that person is trustworthy!


The very notion that I merely believe is rather indicative of the fact that my trust is incomplete or baseless.  If I were to base my belief on instinct or first contact, as you say, I am afraid I can't see how that amounts to "fore knowledge".  It does sound like the judging of a book by its cover to me, if you see what I mean, though I can see how you call it "having faith".  I may have faith, as you say however, but even that, in this instance is not based on any evidence, for if it were, why I am not asserting that I am absolutely certain, which by saying "I believe", I most definitely am not?

Quote from: olanajim
Many times we claim to have faith falter at the slightest sight of obstacle.  Saying I believe I can fly is in order.  You have to back it up with action before your faith can be felt.
I agree with your first statement.  For it is such that if I had faith in my belief, and met an obstacle, my faith flounders.  Would you not then claim that my faith was groundless therefore, however much of it I had before I faltered? And is this not the type of faith I alluded to having but hit the ground as soon as I attempted to fly out that window, some kind of untested faith based on an ill-conceived belief?

Quote from: olanajim
Since you have never fly before, it remain just BELIEF.  If you truly have faith in your ability to fly, you would demostrate it at the slightest opportunity.
You are jumping a stage here Ola (may I by the way?).  Of course if I did have faith in my ability to fly, I would fly.  But I could have faith only because I have evidence or something that makes me believe I can fly.  The fact still remains that I may attempt to fly, and still not be able to fly at all, and I may not know this having never tried flying.  The point is whether I have faith or belief, I can most definitely not fly, and no amount of believing or faith will change that fact whether I try it or not.  And if I were to jump out that window, well.

Quote from: olanajim
Faith is the highest level in conviction.  By FAITH, men achieve extraordinary.  People who faith in their ability don't recite the I CAN DO mantra.  They act once opportunity present itself.
"I have done", is the highest level of conviction Ola, after that comes "I can", and way back in third would come, "I believe I can fly".  But do please recognise that I am not saying what is, or must be for everyone, but what is for me.  I do agree with you though that most things we do, we do because we have the faith that the result will be as we believe it will be.  We have never done them before, but believe that if we did, the result would be as we desired. 

This is however not always the case, as many have believed in the utter improbable.  I think it is for this reason that it is written, which I give in Yoruba, that should "ma se da owo le oun koun lai ko ro be igbehin re yio ti ri" (which in my coloq translates to "do not put your hands on anything without first considering how it will turn out").  The implication of the statement is that one should not just believe anything without first, at least, considering it.

Quote from: olanajim
In religion, we talk of BELIEVERS and FAITHFULS.  The TRUST is not used as often because religion demand utmost conviction.
Yes, I know that religious people use such language.  I however have personally wondered why they do not claim to be more certain than mere believers.  Take for instance the quote from the Bible, "For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son. . . . . ".  Many people who read that sentence will claim to believe that it is true, but ask them how it is true, or what the next line means, and its rather easy to see how they do not even know what it is they mean by what they claim to believe.  Or is something much more not meant by the expression "Whosoever believeth in him shall live eternal life"?

Still, from a religious point of view, you are most absolutely correct in your analysis, and my painting can only be called wrong as such.  I would say that it is not so much that my picture is wrong, but that it is a wrong picture as far as you are concerned.  I am sure we would iron out the differences, if there are any, as we engage in other topics though. 

Thank you for painting for me.  You paint a most beautiful picture.   :-*