Author Topic: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS  (Read 22244 times)

Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2008, 03:53:05 PM »
P.s I typed this out before reading your reply to my Aminah's, and figured to post it all the same as it somewhat answers your question on hierarchy  ;)



i purely understand where you're coming from
buda atum. thanks.

well, if that be the case on what basis
shall we discuss God, adam and eve...
and the fundamental equality between
man and woman.

and when we use the word "equality"
what clear term or terms are we referring to?
what are the yardsticks with which to guide
this analysis and emphasis of what's sauce for
the goose is sauce for the gander?

sister aminah:since paul changed many of the things that jesus had set straight and clear.

can you set forth some examples?
You earlier mentioned the word "hierarchy" as the basis of inequality Beebei, I guess you are asking for an exploration of the topic. First, lets consider where the idea of hierarchy of the genders came from.

As I mentioned, I do not believe that there is a printing press in Heaven where God wrote the Bible. There are some who believe so, and hence take the falling down of the walls of Jericho as justification to fell the walls of Iraq, and maybe soon, Iran, but I claim God never said so, and that such understanding is the reading of a book to justify their own intentions. It is what they would rather hear, or put into God's mouth. Do note that I am accusing Aminah of the same error regarding Paul, that one's understanding is not necessarily what is being said.

In the early days of the Jews, a popular prayer was "Thank God I am not a Gentile, or a woman". Do note that the "thanking" was first that one was not a Gentile, and second, not a woman. I would have you consider that meant that if the Jew had a choice in the matter, he would rather be a godless Gentile than a Jewish woman! Does that not show the attitude of men in those days? Somehow, they have created a hierarchy of preference, of one before the other; the man at the top, the Gentile next, and right at the bottom, the woman, be she Jewish or not!

Many read the story of the fall from the Garden of Eden as something that actually happened, and thereby, justification for the lower placing of the woman. She took the apple of the serpent, they say, so she is reduced to a lowly state. If this were the Koran, I suppose we would claim the Angel Gabriel told it to the writers who then included it in the Bible, but this is not the case. Should not one then ask, who wrote this story, and what was its intention, before one uses it to justify one's own view? What if it were actually the devil who did include this story in the book we call holy? Or what if the devil, at the least, influenced its understanding?

I guess in a way I should go back to what Aminah said about Paul. She said Paul was all things to all people. I am putting it to you that Paul was not the first one to be all things to all people. I would have you consider that even God is all things to all people, or at least It seems to be as far as differint people's understanding is concerned. People have long managed to create God in the image that best suits them despite the warning that we should not do so. I guess people think image means a statue, or something of the like; I am suggesting that one can make an image with words too, and they can be a pretty ugly image at that. I am also stating that the idea we have of hierarchy we have today is such a thing, after all, why else would a God who created all beings equal then place the black person slightly below the white one's? You have heard of that hierarchy too have you not? It after all justified slavery for many centuries!

We believe in the inequality of the genders because we have been mythologised into believing that we are not equal, is what I am suggesting. We should however not forget that Christ, though they claim he did not come to change the law, did change, at the least, our understanding of that law, I suggest be considered.

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2008, 03:53:05 PM »

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Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2008, 04:00:38 PM »


well taken dear buda atum...

you seem to cast some clouds
on the authenticity of the bible;

if that be so, it'll be almost impossible
to pursue this argument of the scriptures
say not.

if that be so...on what basis do you come
to believe that man and woman were created equally?

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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2008, 07:22:58 PM »
The thread had been packed. Did Buda Atum believe in bible authencity, 100% ?

The answer would determine what I would contribute to this thread.
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Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2008, 07:33:09 PM »


we're waiting...
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2008, 08:33:39 PM »
Did Buda Atum believe in bible authencity, 100% ?
Olana, to answer that question, or rather, for you to understand my answer, one would have to discuss what is meant by believe, and then dissect the meaning of the word authenticity. Still, I will give you an answer assuming if you wish to know further, you Sir, will ask.

I, buda, know that there is not one single sentence in the Bible that does not hold to some truth, 100%.

Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2008, 08:34:49 PM »
Beebei, you will have to wait till tomorrow, I am afraid, when I have more time.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2008, 09:10:03 PM »
What did you mean by in some truth? You are rephrasing the question and answered it in a way that suggests you doubt some aspect of it.

Is that correct?
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Offline aminah

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2008, 04:32:18 PM »
buda..I will be back to participate in the discussion.at the moment I have only time for short posts without much thinking or quoting.
olanajim..my brother..I know you have many things to add.
I love this thread.it,s very interesting to me.
see you all.

Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2008, 11:26:28 PM »
What did you mean by in some truth? You are rephrasing the question and answered it in a way that suggests you doubt some aspect of it.

Is that correct?
I place my reply underneath your's quoted above Olana, though it will also be my answer to your's Beebei. The fact that you ask me to explain myself is a blessing you both bless me with. For in replying, I have had to approach God in a way and for a means which I normally take for granted. Hopefully I will do both the service they deserve. May the Lord bless you as much, nay! Even more so than as you do unto me

Question: Is the Bible the authentic word of God.

By my own reckoning, the Bible is the authentic word of God, though that does, as I afore said, depend on what you mean by 'authentic'. I shall also add, to confuse the matter - though that is not my intention - that Christ's reply to the Satan while he was being tempted on the mount implies that the Bible is not the only word of God, nor is it "the Word" of God in the sense that many would have it be, after all, the devil also wears Prada, as is said. But allow me to explain.

In the beginning was the Word. The "Word", which is translated from the Greek word "Logos" means "Word", "Wisdom", "Reason" or "Rationality", which John writes all things were made by, but no one was aware of this fact. That this - the fact that we do not yet know the "Word" - is true today is something that I feel we should be rather mindful of but are not on the whole, even though all the things that we see before us are created according to Wisdom, Reason, and Rationality, all things that we would expect of a Creator. Do I know that this is very much so, that everything is created according to Wisdom, Reason and Rationality, and that it is 100% true? would be one form of the question you have asked me.

John says that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth." When many look at the Bible, they forget that little issue of giving it flesh (which I would contend means that it must be understood in its deeper meaning). Many think the issue is to "believe it" literally, so they do not engage with it to understand it at all; they forget, or do not take into consideration the spirit of the Word itself. The argument between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, when they asked Christ who's wife shall a woman who had married many brothers be in the Kingdom of God was about this same issue. The Pharisees interpreted the Torah while the Sadducees read it literally such that where it read, "an eye for an eye", the later would go ahead and remove the eye of a person who had removed their, while the former would claim it meant that the value of an eye was to be sought by the perpetrator rather than actually removing his eye too. Would one argue today that the Bible is true in the sense by which the Pharisees take it, or as the Sadducees do? Or, putting it in relevant this thread's context, are males and females equal to one another or should one lord over the other?

I would suggest that a sadducaic understanding of the Word is not an understanding of anything that is Godly at all. It is the mere reading (or seeing) of an image which many claim is God and they then go on to worship or act upon; that despite it being written that humans shall not worship any image at all! In Genesis, it is very clear that both male and female He created them, and equally so at that. Even Paul, in saying you should "submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God" (Ephesians 5:21) is advocating equality of the genders! But we humans have devised means over centuries to change that "Word" to create a hierarchy that best suits us! We forget that such a hierarchy was created to make black people also subjugated to white people at some time in the past! We forget that some people used, and still use it to subjugate people of nations to their own so called divinely ordained rule. We forget that some even use it to justify thier own access to the wealth of a land while millions of others die of poverty! We, we our very own selves, now claim that it is God's intention to create such inequalities as we see today! Is this really what we would claim to be the nature of the God that we worship, or is it the devise (or image, if you will) that some humans have decided to make us worship instead? Is there really no salt left in us at all?!

In answer to the question asked, the Bible is the authentic 100% true word of God if it is understood in a Godly sense. Understood in any other way, the so called not given the Word flesh, so to speak, way, reduces it to the word of the evildoers whom many recognise as the devil! Do note, the devil also wears Prada, as they say, for one who takes the wolf wearing sheep skin to be a sheep is like those who call Lord Lord. We know what the Word says about such people's teeth!



Now, in another tone, if I may. We indeed do not see God, but from the image of him that we have (the Word, our fellow human being, us ourselves, etc), we can infer the nature of God. One thing that I have found is that people who take things as the Sadducees did find it rather difficult to understand what I write oftentimes. To them, only the literal is meant, and that "literal" is the only way in which the Bible is true too. I myself do not say anything I say in the literal at all; nor I do I understand in the literal. I would have it noted that the spirit of what I say is meant more than anything else, and that even what you (everyone says) is taken in the same way. For Aminah's sake, I say that I learnt from Paul as well as others, that the deeper meaning is the truer meaning, and is what one should seek.

Jesus asked if "you know not that you are Gods?" John 10:34. Many argue that the small letter "g" in which the word "god" is written in implies a smaller god than the God in which image one is created! This is not a position I myself take, for it is written very clearly in the first chapter of John that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God". Oh, one is okay "believing", which has implications of its own, but they who "receive him" (and I would have you understand that to mean "understand", "comprehend" etc) are blessed with the greater inheritance conferred on the Child (the text would normally say "Son") by the Father.

If the question you ask is "should one obey the Words of the Bible literally?", I am saying one does so at one's own peril; though in reality, no one really does, or has been able to, for by golly how does one go about removing the eye of the one who has removed one's own eye first, while at the same time turning the other cheek?

I am saying that my understanding (at least) of God, and of the texts referred to as the Word of God, cannot be that of a male chauvinistic pig. And if one assumes It ("He", the text reads) is as such, one is refusing to put flesh on the Word and insists on seeing it in the literal and not in the spirit that it is meant. Such a spiritless understanding cannot authenticate the Bible as the 100% Word of God, for one as such is more likely most definitely too blind and dead to know God even if It comes and pokes one in the eye!

The Lord God Almighty bless all eternally, and be the guide in all that is done, at all times. I did not write this in heaven! You may not believe it please! Any omissions and nonsenses which make it not understandable are purely mine which I shall correct, or explain, if asked.




Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 11:27:42 PM »
buda..I will be back to participate in the discussion.at the moment I have only time for short posts without much thinking or quoting.
olanajim..my brother..I know you have many things to add.
I love this thread.it,s very interesting to me.
see you all.
Thanks aminah. Your input educates me too.

Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2008, 11:31:28 PM »
if that be so...on what basis do you come
to believe that man and woman were created equally?
I hope I have managed to answer your's in my last. My contention is that whatever hierarchy we see today is not a God design, but one created by we humans ourselves. To claim that God done it, is tantamount to claiming that God made one person poor and another richer, or one master and another slave!

I myself doubt it proper to blame God for the starving millions or the slaves.

Offline Prince

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2008, 09:52:45 AM »
What a nice piece up there buda atum,
it's true that some people out there are making millions from the poor and weak,
by exploiting the Bible and Quoran.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2008, 11:01:10 AM »
Buda Atum,
you have only add confusions to your explanation.  The word "authentic" means "authentic". If you have reservation with some of the biblical contents and their explanations, it mean you don't believe it entirely. And that implies that you would explain what you don't believe according to your whims. That is dangerous for a christain!

On the feminism and bible writers, you mentioned it had to do with male chauvinism. Ok.

Can you tell us why God didn't send female prophets? Can you educate us why marry mother  of jesus was not made a prophet bearing in mind that she was instrumental to the emergence of jesus phenomenon?
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2008, 03:13:20 AM »
Buda Atum,
you have only add confusions to your explanation.  The word "authentic" means "authentic". If you have reservation with some of the biblical contents and their explanations, it mean you don't believe it entirely. And that implies that you would explain what you don't believe according to your whims. That is dangerous for a christain!
The word "authentic" means a lot more than "authentic" Olana; every word means a lot more than itself. But one would have to 'think' and have the ability to reason to come to that conclusion. Am I to understand from your's above that thinking and reasoning, and may I add, understanding rather than believing blindly(!), is dangerous for a Christian?

By the way, if one doesn't explain (though I would say "understand") it according to one's whim (I would say "oneself"), then is one to understand it according to someone else's whims Olana? Do you not see the similarity between what you accuse me of and what Christ was crucified for? He too did not accept the understanding as given by those who claimed to know!

Quote
On the feminism and bible writers, you mentioned it had to do with male chauvinism. Ok.

Can you tell us why God didn't send female prophets? Can you educate us why marry mother  of jesus was not made a prophet bearing in mind that she was instrumental to the emergence of jesus phenomenon?
Are you claiming that any woman who was a prophet was not sent by God, or that no woman was a prophet? Are you claiming that perhaps because none are recorded in the Bible or because no woman has seemed to fit your own definition of the word? Do note that some people make Mary even much more than a prophet! I would reckon Mother of God was much higher in the hierarchy.

It is not the Bible that you are accusing me of not believing by the way, but your own understanding of it!

Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2008, 03:25:28 AM »
Thanks Prince. Whats worse is those who themselves do not understand and would not even accept that some others can understand! They do not seek to know, so claim no one else should seek to know either!

Lord please save us from going blind!

Offline Prince

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2008, 06:54:42 AM »
Frankly speaking leaving African shore's open my eyes to many horizons,
I could see that in Africa we're been brain washed from child birht to death,
we're made to believe everything, no freedom of thinking for one self or else you will be consider an outsider or a satan child.

The meaning of christianity in the developed world is totally different from that in Africa.
When I was in Nigeria the last time, I have to change my TV channel very often because you can't even enjoy a program without a church advert or some preaching coming in without notifing the viewers.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 07:08:29 AM by Prince »

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2008, 12:29:27 PM »
By your replies, buda atum, you meant to say male chauvinists did not record any story or incidence of female prophet? And if there is any, please help me from going blind and educate me. Marry, mother of god? Incredible! See how you have killed logic!

If marry is mother of god, then she must be higher than god. Why was nothing said of her teachings, wisdoms, and virtures?

By the way, what you are saying is like something is missing from the bible. Like for instance, the records of female prophets. Whose fault?

In short, the present bible is incomplete, not authentic, and fraught with errors. Right, buda atum?
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2008, 05:29:38 PM »
The Bible is not a record of everything that happened Olana! It goes to fact that there must be many things not recorded in it. Just think, if everything was in the Bible, then Christ must have jumped from baby in a manger to reader in the synagogue to teacher who taught around Galilee and was crucified! Also, parts of the world today known as China, Japan, America, could not have existed but must have been created after the Bible was written! Perhaps God did not rest after the sixth day, after all, eh?!

There is a lot said about Mary's virtue though there may be nothing that is extant about her teachings or whether she had any! There are some who do claim that Mary is the Mother of God though, or have you not heard the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.


Though I doubt that they mean that she is higher than God!

"Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the Person of Christ manifested in His mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" He did for His lowly servant and through her for all human beings. The second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused."

- from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; 2675.


I bet you have not heard of the The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene either, after all, it is not in your Bible!

As to the Bible being fraught with errors or not being authentic, that is your own opinion and not mine. By the way, have you read the history of the Bible, or anything on how it was written and the revisions that occur in its numerous translations before you finally happen to have it in the English you probably read it in? You should! In my own opinion, though humans may have corrupted the Bible (and there is sufficient knowledge to show that they misinterpreted quite a lot of it over the years, and misunderstood even more!), the Lord's Will, and moreso even the Lord's Word, cannot be corrupted for those who have eyes and can see that it still shines through rather clearly despite human error. Hey! God did take some mud, spit on it, and rub it in my eyes Olana. Can you hear me say,

Halleluya!

Jesus is indeed Lord!

Some people make God sound like Napoleon in George Orwell's Animal Farm, claiming "All humans are equal, but some humans are more equal than others!" I don't think God can be the pig some people think or would make him out to be who would create man and woman equally, and then create some hierarchy saying one is more equal than the other! If God is like that, then may something indeed help those who are the downtrodden poor of the earth!

Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2008, 05:38:32 PM »


well done guys!
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2008, 06:03:12 PM »
Frankly speaking leaving African shore's open my eyes to many horizons,
I could see that in Africa we're been brain washed from child birht to death,
we're made to believe everything, no freedom of thinking for one self or else you will be consider an outsider or a satan child.
It is a pity isn't it Prince. They say God created the Heaven and the Earth and the Garden of Eden. He placed man and woman in it, and said, work, eat, but do not bother learning about the difference between that which is good and that which is evil; for on the day that you do eat, you shall surely die! We say, we better not eat  and know the difference between the two, so we do not learn what is the good and separate it from what is the evil.

Jesus showed us how to conquer the devil. He did it through knowing what the Book said and understanding it. The devil comes along and tells him it means otherwise, but did he not say, "It is written that thou must not attempt to deceive I who knows better than you do" (Buda's Version!), and does the Book not say that the devil left Him alone and the angels of the Lord came to minister to him?

Another Book of God says, "And if all the trees on earth were pens and the oceans were ink with seven oceans behind it to add to its supply, yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted in the writing; for Allah is exalted in power, full of Wisdom". Koran 31:27. What my people do not do is look at the evidence and see who is dying - those who eat every Word in the manner that is Godly, or those who are there not eating at all! We stick our heads in the sand and claim we know it all having read one single book! We are not being brain washed anymore Prince. As Fela sang, "We don be slave before, but dem don release us now, but we never release ourselves"! In fact, these days, we even enslave one another! We do not learn, and we refuse to allow those who would learn to do so!

Washed brains? So dirtied brains, I say!




Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2008, 06:06:26 PM »
I read your post with smile on my face buda atum. I am awed by the way you are so sure of your own arguments.

To start with, I have read all that you said above. And even deeper than you thought. That was why, I cannot be christain no matter how many times I read bible. I always end up being an sympathiser!

All these in one religion is enough reason to tell you that something is missing. It is interesting to note that you also observed that jesus early childhood was not recorded.

Citing China and America example is out of it. I do have answer to your questions. But this is purely christain matter and I am focusing on that.

In logic:
The bible had underwent changes.
The bible is incomplete.

It therefore means the bible is unreliable! Not authentic!

CASE 2.
Mary is mother of god.
Marry is holier than jesus.

It therefore mean mary is either higher than God or jesus is not God!

CASE 3.
The bible was written by male chauvinists.
Male writers of the bible delebrately created inbalance to make female inferior.

Therefore, the bible is meant to serve male selfish interest!

Combining the above, it means you can't take everything from the bible as literally and you don't believe in everything.

Since half faith is almost NO faith, it means you don't have faith in the bible. Therefore, in logic, quoting bible for you won't change you thinking! That is why, IT IS GOING TO BE USELESS QUOTING BIBLE TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING TO YOU!
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Offline Prince

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2008, 06:09:10 PM »
Religion discussions is always a delicate ground in Nigeria.
It's just like politics, you either join the ruling party or face the consequences.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 06:11:23 PM by Prince »

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2008, 06:15:59 PM »


that shouldn't be on this forum...
if i don't agree i get out, or
keep quiet...or give superior reasons
for my belief in whatever...

buda atum has a right to believe
whatever he wants to belive based
on his power of reason and intellect...

olanajim has the right to choose which
religion can give him the best of what and
how worship and understanding of God should be...

and beibee may not believe anything and everything
and he's still free to ask and explore what others
truly hold dear concerning their faith...

no nation, no country should be condemned as
being ignorant or stupid...only one can actually
judge.

all of us can't be judges; can we?
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Offline Prince

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2008, 06:17:44 PM »
That's correct beibee.

Offline buda atum

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Definition!
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2008, 06:27:40 PM »
I am having to post this definition so we know what the word means.

authentic  ?adjective
1.   not false or copied; genuine; real: an authentic antique.
2.   having the origin supported by unquestionable evidence; authenticated; verified: an authentic document of the Middle Ages; an authentic work of the old master.
3.   entitled to acceptance or belief because of agreement with known facts or experience; reliable; trustworthy: an authentic report on poverty in Africa.


Do note. I, buda do not think that the Bible is false; though it is well known that it has been translated, and thereby copied from its original, and errors were made in the translating.

Its origin is supported by unquestionable evidence that the Jews wrote the early books, and the Christian writers, the later.

It is entitled to my acceptance because my very own experience shows me that it is so, and some will believe it because it agrees with the facts that they accept as so though they are yet to experience it in their own lifes. As for me, when I love my neighbour, for instance as the book says I should, my neighbour tends to love me in return, and if I hate my neighbour, I reap what I sow, though I must say, some neighbours will love or hate one regardless of what one does. I am unable to check whether God created the Heaven and the Earth as the bible says God did, so I can not testify to it agreeing with facts that I am not privy to! I, buda, do not know the facts about the creation of the Heaven and the Earth as I was not there to see it being created. Nor do I have any evidence that anything can be created literally as the story in Genesis claims it is.

However, that last said. There is nothing that a human being will wish to create that he or she would not first have to consider (And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.) And then understand (Let there be light), after which one will separate that which is useful from that which is useless, or according to each's usefulness (God divided the light from the darkness.), and so on! And since God created humans in His image, the story of the creation cannot but be absolutely 100% true, for we can only create if we follow the dictat that is laid down by God for those who would create. And I happen to know this because I have personally experienced it.









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Definition!
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2008, 06:27:40 PM »

 

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