Author Topic: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS  (Read 22262 times)

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #125 on: July 25, 2008, 01:39:47 AM »
Now you are making a fine point. You see, in our own human world, we recognise that everybody can not be a part to the lawmaking. But once those people (whether we elect them or they stole their way there) make the law, it is bidding on us whether it is acceptable to us or not.

It is not just in Nigeria. Even US have imperfect law. Look at the issue of Guatamala Bay trial.

Now, why am I drawing you at this? To help you understand why you have no choice than accepting words of God, as long as it has no alternative.

Let assumed that the bible writers wrote the bible to suit their selfish interest. Has it ever occured to you that there might be element of truth in their words?

The bone of contention is: Did creator make men leader over women? From the time of the creation, we have not heard anything to the contrary. Since being a "leader" does not implies that one gender is superior to other, it is baseless arguing the rationale behind God motive.

Taking the politics into question. We have LEADER and FOLLOWER. Just two. The two must forever remain whether in democrazy, military, autocrazy, or monachy... Whether citizen agree with it or not. Somebody has to be the head.

In gender politics, there are just two players. Male and Female. One must head and the other must follow. But that does not imply that one superior to other. Just a social system and each have a set of duty and responsibility.

Since almost all religions agreed on this, I align my conviction after it. I am of strong view that: just as we cannot fathom why male have --- and female, virgina, in spite of near similarity in their anatomy, so can NO MAN, HOWEVER REASONABLE FATHOM WHY THE CREATOR MADE MEN LEADER OVER MEN.

The argument that it is due to male chauvinism cannot hold, because it has never been recorded that a female prophet arise among men. No matter what you think, if indeed men had refused to acknowledge female prophet, someone would have reveal it..

Therefore, pulpit is not for lady

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #125 on: July 25, 2008, 01:39:47 AM »

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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #126 on: July 25, 2008, 02:34:49 PM »
Olana, do I have permission to post your rational on another site please. The heading will be "The pulpit is not for lady". I will be responding, of course, duly.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #127 on: July 26, 2008, 08:45:29 AM »
Sure! Why not?

And what have you got to say on the above?
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #128 on: July 27, 2008, 12:00:44 AM »
You see, in our own human world, we recognise that everybody can not be a part to the lawmaking. But once those people (whether we elect them or they stole their way there) make the law, it is bidding on us whether it is acceptable to us or not.
No Olana! Please do not put your words into my mouth! I never said I agree or recognise anything of the sort, that everybody cannot play a part in lawmaking! In fact, the whole idea of democracy means that everybody must play a part in making the law of their society! It is our duty! It is what we do when we vote for the leaders; we play our part in chosing the laws (or lawmakers) that rule us! And if we do not like the rules they make, we still have a choice. At the next election we vote in another set of rulers.

And do note that there is nothing to say that I cannot even contest myself, an option that is not open to the woman once you have decided that she is incapacitated, by God! You are aware that it was only recently that we allowed her to have the vote, are you not?

Now, why am I drawing you at this? To help you understand why you have no choice than accepting words of God, as long as it has no alternative.
You are wrong, again, though I must say, it is more your version of God?s word that I disagree with myself. Still, it is up to one whether one accepts God?s word or not - one does have a choice. One can chose to be an atheist, just as much as one can chose to be a Moslem or a Hindu or a Christian or a pagan! Believe me, the sun will rise in the sky tomorrow.

Yet, the issue here is whose word it is, Olana, humans or God?s. Another thread perhaps: Who Wrote the Bible, or the Quran? Though, I would go as far as saying that what you and I are doing here is writing our own Word of God! I say we write in it that both male and female can be Bishops. You are saying we dare not write our own Word of God. Hey! Didn't they say the same thing to the Prophet Mohammed? Guess you may not have heard by the Order of Melchizedek.

Let assumed that the bible writers wrote the bible to suit their selfish interest. Has it ever occured to you that there might be element of truth in their words?
I already said there was truth in the Bible, Olana, and how it is so, even if it contains errors, which I insist, it doesn?t, though there is self interest indeed! Whether it is true or not depends of one?s understanding.

Let me use Islam to illustrate. You will note that in the world today, there are some people who believe that it is okay to go and blow up the unbelievers whom they refer to as infidels. They say they are fighting a jihad, and following the words of the Prophet as written in the Quran. Some people even call them Islamic terrorists, which I claim they do due to their own ignorance, and the ignorance of those who claim they do what they do in the name of Allah, for where does it say in the Quran that one should go and blow up unbelievers? Can such an understanding of the Quran be said to be true to those who claim that is what it teaches, Olana?

The bone of contention is: Did creator make men leader over women? From the time of the creation, we have not heard anything to the contrary. Since being a "leader" does not implies that one gender is superior to other, it is baseless arguing the rationale behind God motive.
I insist that no Creator made man leader over woman Olana! If a Creator did so, our discussion here will be a mute point! I mean, just imagine us arguing whether a dog was the equal of a man, or whether an elephant can be a Bishop in the Church!? Whatever one may wish, does a dog?s bark show any sort of equality with humans? I put it to you that a similar argument against women is unfounded.

We were created equal! Both male and female, when He created us, the book says! You should stop trying to rewrite God to suit.

Taking the politics into question. We have LEADER and FOLLOWER. Just two. The two must forever remain whether in democrazy, military, autocrazy, or monachy... Whether citizen agree with it or not. Somebody has to be the head.
This is the rub of the discussion right here Olana, you telling me to accept the status quo whether I like it or not! I guess I would not really mind if I was the leader-man. It would be good if the following-woman knows her place. And by golly, does it help me convincing her that God had determined what that place is? But then, the master too would wish the slave did not rebel against the chain around his neck.

Just think, if people at a particular point in time had accepted the type of thinking you advocate here, the slave will remain a slave while his master remains his master olana; or closer to home, Nigeria my country will remain under the white man?s rule. After all, there was a point in time when they were our rulers and we were just meant to follow. I can still feel the chains and the padlock around my slave neck, while you try to convince me that is how God wrote it! Thank God that some people in the past never agreed with you on that one

Therefore, pulpit is not for lady
Let me translate that for you: The oppressed must accept their conditions and not attempt to improve their lot! A defeatist philosophy, I reckon!

Hey! I think this discussion is really done, I do not think I can say it clearer than this Olana. I will not accept that God created me to serve you the man! If God did do such a thing, that God cannot be my God!

According to my God, we are equal.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2008, 10:28:50 AM »
You are still going backward, Buda Atum.

On Lawmakers, and your so call Democrazy. Tell me, did Americans or British elect to send troop to Iraq? Didn't the nations condemned the act? Why did the leaders went ahead with the plan even as the electorate rejected it? Did lawmakers elect to send troops to Iraq?

You claimed citizens elect after every four years. Ever heard of vote rigging? Have you ever heard of a leader worldwide winning 100% in election? Even Zimbabwe that has just one candidate didn't have 100% vote! Tell more of what you think. It is possible you are living in your own world to see how isolated you view are against the reality.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2008, 11:10:55 AM »
I did not say men and women are not equal. They are equal but have difference assignement, difference anatomy, difference duty just as you are well aware. You would be speaking on either side of your mouth to convinced any human being otherwise. Even the original Butha you follow is very much aware of this.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #131 on: July 27, 2008, 11:21:49 AM »
Sure, You may open a new thread on who wrote the scriptures if you wish to contest it.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #132 on: July 27, 2008, 11:24:26 AM »
A defitist philosophy? Can you expantiate? So pulpit is meant for women? Like I said, you may open a thread for it.
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #133 on: July 27, 2008, 03:44:32 PM »
You are still going backward, Buda Atum.
Olana, we have a difference in understanding! I am very much aware that some Islamic thought says a person must bow to authority, and that that is the way God intended things. This same thought does not agree with democracy because it changes the world order that Islam claims was ordained by God. This however is not a view that I myself adhere to, and rather fortunately for me, I have that choice! I am not suggesting that Christianity is any better, as it too has some ideology which I would not agree with, and I dare say, so too does Buddhism, though it does not have a doctrine as such. But, that is why I do not do beliefs I guess, which means that I do not have to accept any religious idea without the exercise of my own ability to consider the evidence for or against. It is this that you claim I must not do. And I find myself in some silly argument with you on the issue as if what you think or believe has any bearing whatsoever on what I think or do!

The issue here is not only about women and the pulpit Olana, as you indeed must be aware. It is about the acceptance of some people's divine right to rule over the rest of us. Imagine if my position here where that you must submit to me always, because I believe that I am superior to you. Would you accept this? I guess if I create a situation better than the one you have, you might accept this, and personally, so might I if I could not create a better world for myself. But evidence has shown that where a person rules in perpetuity regardless of what the people have to say about it, usually, despotism sets in, and the ruler becomes a tyrant. But you claim I am
living in your own world to see how isolated you view are against the reality.
What reality Olana, what you want to see before you? I guess you have not yet understood the Words of Christ where He meant, I have not come to change the Law, but to change the world we live in! Believe me, the Kingdom of God is at hand, indeed.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2008, 06:17:13 AM »
The issue on this topic, is about PULPIT and not divine right, Buda. I refuse to navigate into any other thing unless a new thread is created. No religion that I know advocates women subjugation. But on spiritual matter, the rule is very clear. Until such day you can convincingly explain why men and women has diff anatomy, you would find that the logic you proposes is entirely yours. And that you remains in your own world of reasoning...

I understand why you hold onto that view. It has nothing to do with god speaking to you or you listening to god. Since you never want to accept anything that you can't conceive. Meaning that you view your reasoning and host of aetheistic literatures and philosophies you have read as superior to others. When it come to leadership, everyone know that it wasn't about an individual desire.

Talking about accepting authority. You want to tell me that you are not obliged to obey the law of the land you live, whether it appeal to your logic or not? Do you want to tell me that everything in the constitution of the land you live favour you?

Maybe christains can debate women leading from the pulpits. I doubt if that would happen in Islam until people like you convert to Islam. It is happening in christaindom because the leaders are fond of changing laws that does not appeal to them. The same thing Jesus preached against. So bad.

Talking of Islam, I bet you know nothing about Islam beyond what you read. Your view can therefore be excused. Most people see islam as they want to see it. If you think by merely reading English quran as you read English bible, you have known Islam, perish the thought. Islam is not just about that. It would take your neutral mind to learn and understand Islam. Nothing more, nothing less. Under this circumstance, it is hard for you.
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #135 on: July 29, 2008, 05:35:54 PM »
It is amusing that you equate women at the pulpit with anatomy Olana, you make it sound as if I were arguing that the man too should get pregnant and give birth to a child! I would suppose that since he is anatomically challenged in that capacity, I am sure you would understand if I disagree with you that as far as the pulpit is concerned, the woman has no such challenge. It is not as if her lack of a dik means she cannot know God!

One thing I have found here is what you yourself claimed - though I would say it was a confession on your part - that it is difficult to reason with a religious person (I do claim it is not the case with them all!). A text claims a thing, and, as if those who wrote it were God's themselves, we humans of today must not consider what it means for our own modern living! Should we go and kill people too like those books say we should? You also claim that one has no choice where even the law of the and is concerned!

Well let me explain something to you. The law, at least where I live, is not something that human beings cannot chose to disobey, and in fact, it never has been. For when God himself made the so called first law in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a choice in whether they obeyed it or not! I would suggest that you open your eyes and look around you, even over there in Nigeria, laws are broken daily! So I do not understand where you get the idea that humans do not have a choice.

Secondly, at least over here where I live, if a law is made, or a situation exists that the citizens of the nation do not approve of, we can challenge those laws in a court of law, or we can protest in the street, at the worst, we can be civilly disobedient; we are not under any obligation to obey any law that we do not agree with, though of course, we will bear the consequences, if we do not have that law changed first It is the reason why United Kingdom does not have a written constitution Olana, so that societal contracts can very easily be changed as we develop and progress!

You claim that Jesus was against the changing of the laws! Now, I would not go as far as claiming that you are ignorant of Christianity or Christ, but I would put it to you that Jesus was absolutely and completely for change! If he wasn't, we gentiles would not have been included in the inheritance of God. You do know, after all that God, Jehova, was very much reserved for Jews only, and that you could only be Jewish if your mother was Jewish, do you not? In fact, the Chosen of God were admonished not to mix with non-Jews, and it is written in the Book! I personally can only thank Christ that He was for change myself, perhaps we would still all be going to hell, which would have been reserved for the Jews alone!

I would love to challenge you on the issue of Islam changing its laws Olana, but you would claim that I am ignorant of the subject, whatever I say. I put it to you that Islam has changed a lot since the days of Mohammed though, and it will continue to change, at least as long as the world we live in exists. But you do not have to accept my word for it.

Finally, what I find sad about this thinking of your's in my opinion is that you claim it is an Islamic view, and you think the issue is about the pulpit alone! I am sorry, I beg to differ with you. I will allow you the first, knowing it is your own understanding of Islam, which you think is so perfect, and which, you fail to recognise, is oppressive to women. My one consolation is that it is your own view, shared by many Muslims for sure, but not Koranic at all!

 On the second, I would point you to a prayer of Christians with reference to the specific line "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". One thing that some people do not understand is how Christians are the salt of the earth Olana, and what they do in a society where Christianity is practiced, is what is practiced in the society at large. You see, it is not logical for one to expect people to go to Church on a Sunday, hear that women are not worthy enough to be made Bishops, and expect that in the secular world they would be allowed to be Chief Executive Officers, or the boss at work! Would that not be the hypocrisy that Christ railed against?

But anyway! I do sincerely believe my work on this thread is done. As is written, some seeds have fallen on good soil, have taken root and are growing. One, you will agree, must not waste time planting on dead soil.

Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2008, 06:13:41 PM »
So if physically men and women are not equal, what argument could you make to explain the disparity? If you can convince me why men and women don't have the same anatomy, I would accept you argument hook line and sinker.

You see, as long as your much trusted reasoning and intellect can't explain that, there is no reason why you should doubt the creator's motive for not sending female prophets.

You are so much critical of the books that you fail to see what is beyond your comprehension. History books are stocked with story of men who think that there reasoning represent the thought of Almighty. They look at ordinary men sent to them and reason that they can do the same. Pharaoh is a good example.

You keep mentioning the faulty part of the books but can't substantiate them.

You cannot see the sun while hidding in the darkness. You have to come out of the darkness before anyone can give you light.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2008, 06:19:10 PM »
Comparing leadership of religion to the leadership of a company is like comparing Venus and the Earth. They are not the same.

The leaders bow to God and not to their job.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #138 on: July 29, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »
Please tell me how Islam is oppresive of women. Perhaps it is good ask. And also add your source. Since you read quran alot.

When I said something is Islamic, I said it with confidence. As a man who have seen deep into Islam and had been a teacher and student. I will love to know better if you can help. Afterall Islam said we should continue to learn till death.

By the way, did I warn you not to interprete quran anyhow unless you are a student or teacher of TAFSIR and FIQH. If you are not, then you are wasting your time.

That verse of Bible you quoted: THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IN THE HEAVEN... is one of the most criminal interpretation I ever read. It merely show why you can't understand what the scripture was talking  about except what you want it to talk about.
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Offline olanajim

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2008, 06:51:46 PM »
And please tell me how Islam have changed since time of muhamed, historian.
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Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #140 on: July 29, 2008, 06:56:59 PM »

uk church to debate women bishops...
has the debate started or ended?

olanajim: obviously this is leading nowhere

buda atum: this is a parallel line

fine points from both sides...should beibee say
that in some churches ladies are already bishops
and some other churches will continue to follow...

from beibee's understanding so far, the persuasion
hasn't reached me to believe that the true God wants
the female folks to lead in His sacred service while
qualified responsible men are available.

man may sway from old times to modernity
emotions may tilt to something different...
i, beibee welcomes change! i've got nothing
against the women: oh my mom, my sister and
                           my sweetheart!

truly, beibee can only speak of God based on
what he firmly understands and he's convinced
and moved about it...

if i may ask in digression: what's equality?
does equality gives room for some privileged positions?
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #141 on: July 29, 2008, 07:13:30 PM »
Yes Beibee, women are Bishops in some Churches. In the Anglican Church, there are already women Bishops too, though not yet in the English part of it yet. And those women have been equal to the job.

One thing some people fail to notice is necessity, in this issue. Just ten years ago, we were having this same debate in the Church of England about whether women should even be vicars (priests)! Today, more women are becoming vicars than men are, and it is recognised that without those women, there would not be enough vicars at all.

Olana! I never said Islam oppresses women! In fact, I have stated the exact opposite, if you would open your eyes and read what I write instead of seeing what you want to see! Oh, do not get me wrong, there are people who have used Islam to oppress women indeed, and still do. But I am claiming that as some people erroneously use Islam to strap themselves with bombs and blow themselves and innocent people up, so are those who oppress women with it do! The Koran, nor God, has in any way advocated that this is what should be done. 

Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #142 on: July 29, 2008, 07:18:54 PM »


may i add, that in truth
that the bible actually talked
about women prophet...at least
there was mention of one!

i am very much aware there are
very much devout women who
serve the true God faithfully...
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Offline buda atum

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #143 on: July 29, 2008, 07:21:50 PM »
Anyway folks, its Tuesday, and I am off to Bible Study. We are reading the Chapter five of Ephesians,

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Some people will forget the first line in what I have quoted, and claim that God has told the woman only, to submit and serve her husband! They will forget that since Christ, as the head of the Church, came to serve, so is the man being asked to serve his wife. They will forget that we are all members of the same body, and so will remove their own 'eye' because it offends them!

I expect there will be some blind people when we done!

Offline beibee

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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #144 on: July 29, 2008, 07:29:42 PM »

well, what's blind to buda atum
may be open to others!

have a fulfilled time, dear.
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Re: UK CHURCH TO DEBATE WOMEN BISHOPS
« Reply #144 on: July 29, 2008, 07:29:42 PM »

 

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