Author Topic: WHO IS SATAN?  (Read 6316 times)

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
WHO IS SATAN?
« on: April 11, 2008, 07:21:17 PM »

is there really a devil called satan?

do you believe satan exist?
or is the concept of satan
the evil in humans?

Advertisements

CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Nigerian Best Forum . NBF

WHO IS SATAN?
« on: April 11, 2008, 07:21:17 PM »

Enter Your Email Below For Daily Jobs Updates, It's Free

100% Free


Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 03:32:37 PM »
As in, is there some thing that says to me, "buda, do evil?"

No beibee, I do not think so, though the satanic dishonesty in me would of course make me claim that it was the devil that made me do it; after all, weak and evil that I am, I would hardly admit my very own evilness. That said, there are different reasons for doing evil, some which one may claim is the 'Satans' fault, and some, which are definitely my very own doing.

Take for instance, my act of not loving my neighbour. I cannot say that I have not been taught that I should, and as much as I love myself at that. I am sure you would agree that the choice of whether I then do love or not is purely my very own doing and nothing to do with any Satan whatsoever.

On the other hand however, considering I may not love myself that much (it is indeed possible), I may by effect not love my neighbour so much neither, in which case, it could be said that my ignorance rather, was to blame. And when I do happen to find out that I have not been so loving to my neighbour (you know, a la David and Bersheba for instance), and since I am hardly likely to admit that I am, or have been, ignorant, well, the devil did it jo! If you see what I mean.

I could of course learn to say, "It is written", whenever the devil tempts me. Which if I have not done, well, it could be claimed that devil is not responsible for my non-acceptance of 'Christ' into my life. After all, nothing made me accept the Satan instead!

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 03:58:45 PM »


buda atum...i admire your exposition;
but, of greater importance here
isn't whether certain evils are attributable

to satan or to humans...

the issue is: does satan, the devil
really exist?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 05:20:45 PM »


buda atum...i admire your exposition;
but, of greater importance here
isn't whether certain evils are attributable

to satan or to humans...

the issue is: does satan, the devil
really exist?
A certain person I read about was once asked about the things that happen in the heavens Beibee. I offer you His reply to the question you ask here as it is rather very appropriate: "You ask me of things of the heavens, when you do not even know the things of this earth!" (p.s. paraphrased as it is in buda's authorised version).

On the more serious though, Satan's existence is like  that of God. If you do good and can claim it was not you what done it but God, then by effect, when evil was done, it sure could not have been you what done it either, I reckon.

P.s. I answered your question in the previous post. Sorry if my reply does not score the grade. Still, you could enlighten me perhaps.

beibee, does satan, the devil really exist or not?


Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 05:57:41 PM »


i appreciate your patience and
mature understanding;

but:

is the existence of God proved
because there's good?

is the existence of devil proved
because there's evil?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 11:37:02 PM »
is the existence of God proved
because there's good?

is the existence of devil proved
because there's evil?
Thank you for your patience too. Let me try and approach this in a different way. Note that my answer to the two questions above is no, the existence of good and bad does not prove the existence of God or the devil.

Imagine I say to a person who claims there is a God that there isn't one. How would I go about proving that I am right Beibee, and they are wrong, if that were my position? How would they go about proving to me that there is a God too? Would I accept any of the evidence they place before me (if that evidence is no different to that which already exists which would not have convinced me neither)?

The existence of God is not proved and neither is that of the devil. People 'believe' (please refer to my understanding of the word 'believe' as discussed with olanajim) that they exist and I, buda, do not have sufficient arrogance to attempt to convince anyone for, or otherwise Beibee. If one seeks, one will find out for one's selves.

P.s. If you really want to put me on the spot though, you can of course ask for my own personal opinion on the matter. But note, my answer will be a mere opinion. My arrogance precludes me from offering it as fact.


Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 07:36:04 AM »


thanks pretty much buda atum...
i appreciate and understand your kind
and succinct words...

ok. i put it to you: what's your personal
opinion on this?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 08:44:23 PM »


thanks pretty much buda atum...
i appreciate and understand your kind
and succinct words...

ok. i put it to you: what's your personal
opinion on this?
I knew you would corner me eventually Beibee! I perhaps should have kept my mouth shut.

In the early days when the thing called Satan was so named, human knowledge was rather limited, and people did not know the reasons for what they saw around them. If a woman did not get pregnant, they said the devil done it; if an epidemic killed off their cattle or themselves, they said the devil done it; and if a person were dying of malaria or Hiv/Aids, as I heard said in Mali a couple of years ago, they say the devil done it. But nowadays, we are becoming more enlightened, and know that our attributing to the devil of things we knew not of was basically our own ignorance manifesting itself. Still, it is the language used by very many people indeed.

Today, it is not so odd for people to still claim that it were the devils fault that we do not have electricity in Nigeria, for instance. There is indeed meaning in the expression, and I would not claim that it is untrue. But the reason for that is I understand what the expression means, or what is meant, which is, "we have no electricity because we do not have the knowledge to generate and distribute it"; after all, it is not the 'devil' that is responsible for switching out the light whenever we put it on leaving us in the darkness, but our very own lack of knowing how to make the words "Let there be light always", effective, as Jesus the Christ taught (or is teaching) us to do.

It is my opinion that we use the words Satan, Devil, Demons, etc, as generic words to describe something that we can (or do) not explain at this point in time. We will eventually put more flesh on what we mean as time goes by. We will be more specific in our use of language and substitute them for those we currently use, and the devil will not be responsible for malaria, or Hiv/Aids, or our lack of electricity. We will eventually define the issues that face us better and clearer so that we can find ways around the obstacles they present. I guess I am saying, one day, the words "And there was light", will follow "let there be", and we will understand the causes of that which we claim the devil done, today. One day!

I do hope I am clear enough. If not, do question some more, for your doing so makes me look harder.

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 12:12:55 PM »


buda atum...you don't look harder one bit!

you're harder.

if beibee deduce adequately
from your personal standpoint and reasoning;

if evil is our ignorance...an abstract phenomenon;
with no specific reference to its incarnate or spirit...
i put it to you: does it therefore mean:

the good as inferred from your above, is embodied
by Jesus christ...is a contradiction?

if evil is a symptom of ignorance
then, good must be a manifestation of enlightenment?

there's no Satan and Jesus?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2008, 11:31:16 PM »
buda atum...you don't look harder one bit!

you're harder.
Wouldn't say so myself. See me not being able to just sleep sometimes!

Quote
if beibee deduce adequately
from your personal standpoint and reasoning;

if evil is our ignorance...an abstract phenomenon;
with no specific reference to its incarnate or spirit...
i put it to you: does it therefore mean:

the good as inferred from your above, is embodied
by Jesus christ...is a contradiction?
Beibee, I would not say that the fact that I never mentioned spirit means it isn't a spirit! In fact, if you would, it is in 'spirit' that I would claim these things exist. But I suppose I would have to give an explanation of what I mean by 'spirit', for I probably do not use it in its traditional sense.

We say, "in the spirit of a thing", for instance, when we mean that which goes with what we consider to be the nature of the thing. The Spirit of God, would be said to be the good therefore, though in no way am I implying that God is that spirit - as I mentioned, we must not mistake the finger for the moon it is pointing to. I would say that when we say "God is a Spirit", we mean that "God's nature is spiritual", or "God's very essence is spiritual". At the least it is general accepted that God's nature is the good. I suppose, in a way I am saying that God's manifestation is an "abstract phenomenon", to borrow from you.

Quote
if evil is a symptom of ignorance
then, good must be a manifestation of enlightenment?
Now this one, I am still working on. I think an enlightened person is one who would know the difference between that which is good and that which is not so good, or else, why would we claim such a person is enlightened? So far, I have got to the point where I am thinking that an enlightened person would know the better way to live, while the ignorant one will be tossed around by any wind that blows. I think that the good person would be good because such a person knows, first, what the good is, and secondly, the benefit of doing such good. So perhaps, in a way, the good is a manifestation of enlightenment. This is the claim that Aristotle at least, also made in his Nichomecan Ethics. I do not however think that in my state of not yet being enlightened that I can know for sure. I do know though that if I seek, I am sure bound to find.

I would have to think this one through some more I suppose.

Quote
there's no Satan and Jesus?
If I were to say that the Spirit of God (or Christ) were within you, let us say, I am saying something about your nature, and most likely that it is a good nature; and if I were to claim that of the devil were in me, I am sure you would take it that I was evil itself incarnated. I think that it therefore means that something must be meant when these words are used, and we can both understand what is meant by them. At the least we know the spirit of what we mean. So I would be a fool to claim that which millions, if not billions, of people claim exists, doesn't. I do not see any contradiction as long as we understand what we mean by "existence" Beibee.

My own studies of Jesus have been an understanding of "I am the Light and the Way". I take the two usually capitalised words (the Light, the Way), to mean not just mere lanterns and road maps, but the Light and the Way in the spirit of things, "the light" implying that which allows one to see, and "the Way", the doing of things properly so as to produce desirable fruit. When the light shines, I can see the way, but in the dark, I am lost. Can you see how one's ignorance can be a barrier to these two 'spirits' manifesting in one's life if one has not,  "accepted the Spirit of Christ into one's life", so to speak,?

I would say that since what we call Satan is directly opposite to that which is fruitful and not pleasing to God, it is more likely a consequence of my being ignorant, or blind, as some would say. It could be said that such a person were blind to God, for why else would a human being chose to do that which brings no profit if not because one does not know "that which one does"? Would one not be wrong to claim that one's own ignorance does not exist Beibee, and that one knows it all?

I read Jesus went about opening people eyes. I take this "in the spirit, and would suggest that it is meant that He went around curing people of their ignorance. He is specifically shown to have conquered the Satan, a teaching he left me so that I too can make it run away with its tail between its legs. It is written, "And angels will come and minister to one". I take it those angels show the way. And one can only see that way by making sure the devil does not blind one I reckon, with its one single most potent tool, ignorance.

Offline pmdaboh

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 12:29:01 AM »
Just reading Beibee and Buda.  My husband is sleep now (trying to adjust to the time difference).  I started to put my "two cents in it (as the popular phrase goes), but I think, gentlemen, I will just read right now.  Sometimes its best to read and reflect first, which gives one time to really put one's thoughts together.  I am enjoying the interchange between the two of you though. :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 12:30:56 AM by pmdaboh »
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Links To Appear In both Signature and Posts.

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 12:09:33 PM »

I would say that since what we call Satan is directly opposite to that which is fruitful and not pleasing to God, it is more likely a consequence of my being ignorant, or blind, as some would say. ___buda atum

by making sure the devil does not blind one I reckon, with its one single most potent tool, ignorance. ___buda atum

by your very careful and thoughtful
submission, i infer that, buda atum agrees
to the existence of devil/satan...

but, looking at the above quoted statements
from you, dear buda atum, don't you see some
inherent contradiction?

or, could it be some tongue-in-cheek words?

pmdaboh: it's great to know you're hale and hearty
with your sweet hubby...please enjoy the bliss of
the sleep with him;

and beibee and buda atum, look forward
to having your contributions on this thread.
cheers.
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 03:45:11 PM »

I would say that since what we call Satan is directly opposite to that which is fruitful and not pleasing to God, it is more likely a consequence of my being ignorant, or blind, as some would say. ___buda atum

by making sure the devil does not blind one I reckon, with its one single most potent tool, ignorance. ___buda atum
Yes! I see the contradiction, thanks Beibee. I blame my typing skills not being able to keep up with my mind; it made me leave out a bit. I'll add the missing bit, lets see.

I would say that since what we call Satan is directly opposite to that which is fruitful and not pleasing to God, it is more likely a consequence of my being ignorant, or blind, as some would say, that causes me not to see it.

The argument goes like this: If I know that the 'good' exists, and I claim it is the nature of that which is referred to as God (if you agree, that is), then by account, the bad, which also exists, must be a nature of something that is the good's opposite which must have a noma, hence the existence of that which is commonly referred to as Satan, or the Devil.

noma means a tag by which a thing is denoted in speech or writing. A "what we call it", so to speak.

I hope that solves the contradiction Beibee.



Quote
and beibee and buda atum, look forward
to having your contributions on this thread.
cheers.
thumbs

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 04:00:33 PM »


i am overwhelmed by your
sincerity and understanding.

yep, the contradiction's cleared.
and thanks for adding to my vocabulary:

"noma"! it should come handy in the near future.

i shall rest my case...for now
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline vil

  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
  • Gender: Male
  • more pulse
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 04:26:34 PM »
Satan is in our minds

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 04:36:06 PM »
I would say, my kind person, that you took mud, spat on it, and rubbed it in my eye. Your questions made me have to think more about stuff which I otherwise normally have just take for granted.

Thank you very much Beibee.

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2008, 03:41:37 PM »


vil...i assume you can only
speak for your own "satanic mind";
well, satan is in your mind!
how do you prove that satan dwells in your
mind?

buda atum...you know, in life
we must never stop asking question:

we ask question to avoid danger, to satisfy
our curiosities and to know our way; and to confirm
or re-examine what we already know...

we're all sojourners in the land of knowledge.
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 05:04:15 PM »
buda atum...you know, in life
we must never stop asking question:

we ask question to avoid danger, to satisfy
our curiosities and to know our way; and to confirm
or re-examine what we already know...

we're all sojourners in the land of knowledge.
The book puts it like this: "Seek and you shall find". Another text says "And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."" I take that to be the promise of eternal life myself, Beibee. That's how importnt it is to 'ask questions'.

Unfortuantely, there is the caution, or warning that follows the above quoted:

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

As they say, eni ti o ba fi oriti de opin ni a o gba la

Quotations are from The Gospel Of Thomas

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 05:33:50 PM »

buda atum:
hey, quite an age!

the doubting thomas?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2008, 04:37:44 PM »
 I have been busy in a discussion on another thread on another site Beibee, something to do with the Holy Grail and Rosicrucians, with some Nigerians in America ( http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=238948#post238948 ) Guess we been discussing a different nature of God.

You know, I always wonder about Thomas. There is a verse in Deuteronomy, I think, that says one should check all things properly, and not just believe whatever one hears. Though Jesus seems to imply that Thomas is not as blessed as those who just believed, I would rather be a Thomas in this world of lies and untruths myself, even if it means I am not going to be in the better parts of Heaven as those who just believe. I reckon its the difference between building my faith on solid rock, or building it on sand. The waves and the winds will get at one and not the other.

Hope you been well.


Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2008, 04:47:58 PM »


thanks for that drop on thomas...
and do the scriptures themselves
not say: make sure of all things
and hold fast to that which is true?

well...we may not really understand
the complete context in which the master
spoke...but we're sure thomas wasn't counted
as a sinner!

rosicrucians...and the holy grail; that's sure
an explosive discussion.
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline buda atum

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 01:36:39 AM »
Yep they sure do ask us to check, and we do know the context in which the Master spoke! It was when Thomas asked to see the marks on His hands and side so he can be certain it was Christ.

Rocs and the Grail aren't that explosive Beibee. Its just that people do not know anything about them.

Offline atunbi

  • Cadet
  • Posts: 19
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2008, 10:55:20 AM »
Satan is esu lalu ogiri oko.   The all powerful one that has no salvation.   It is fair to say satan has a lot more following in the world than God!!  Shocking but true.   (A lot lot more people are going to hell fire than will make the Kingdom)  Hasn't Satan done well for himself?
London Photographer

Offline beibee

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorable
  • ****
  • Posts: 29,294
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2008, 07:26:22 PM »


atunbi...can you be so
familiar with old harry?
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Link To Appear In your Signature
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPAM TO INCREASE YOUR POSTS COUNT. START BY WELCOMING NEW MEMBERS AND HELPING OTHERS. SPAMMING WILL ONLY GET YOU BANNED!

Offline olanajim

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,761
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 10:05:48 AM »
Who is satan? Satan is a jinn. That is all!
CLICK HERE TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS ON NBF SOCIAL NETWORK
You Need to Make 50 Posts For Your Links To Appear In both Signature and Posts.

Nigerian Best Forum . NBF

Re: WHO IS SATAN?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 10:05:48 AM »

 

ads

Enter Your Email Below For Daily Jobs Updates, It's Free

100% Free